And they are the teachers of those who learn—the grammar-master and the lyre-master used to teach you and other boys; and you were the learners? Such was the discussion, Crito; and after a few more words had passed between us we went away. You are abusive, Ctesippus, said Dionysodorus, you are abusive! Well, then, I said, since we all of us desire happiness, how can we be happy?—that is the next question. If medicine were supposed to have supreme authority over the subordinate arts, and I were to ask you a similar question about that, you would say—it produces health? Virtue is also the topic in Protagoras, though this dialogue is largely narrated by Socrates (David Rintoul), who 'reports' the conversation which had taken place shortly before. And he who says that which is, says the truth. 'There are three kinds of ambiguity of term or proposition. "Knowing" and "letters" are perhaps separately unambiguous, but in combination may imply either that the letters are known, or that they themselves have knowledge. And are not health and beauty goods, and other personal gifts? At the end of the dialogue, Crito raises a few other interesting points, which Plato only touches on briefly. Certainly not, I said, for there are many other things which I do not know. My fear is that this word 'always' may get us into trouble. The Euthydemus has attained an unwarranted distinction in Plato's corpus: despite its obvious length, its striking artistic merits, and the broad range of Plato's Euthydemus. But can a father be other than a father? said Dionysodorus. Then, I said, you know all things, if you know anything? Certainly; did you think we should say No to that? And were you not just now saying that you could teach virtue best of all men, to any one who was willing to learn? Socrates: You shall judge, Crito, if you are willing to hear what followed; for we resumed the enquiry, and a question of this sort was asked: Does the kingly art, having this supreme authority, do anything for us? And what knowledge ought we to acquire? There was such a crowd around you that I could not get within hearing, but I caught a sight of him over their heads, and I made out, as I thought, that he was a stranger with whom you were talking: who was he? The mirth is broader, the irony more sustained, the contrast between Socrates and the two Sophists, although veiled, penetrates deeper than in any other of his writings. Yes, I said (for I was certain that something good would come out of the questions, which I was impatient to hear); yes, such things, and such things only are mine. Socrates: And Cleinias and I had arrived at the conclusion that knowledge of some kind is the only good. For at last Ctesippus began to throw off all restraint; no question in fact was too bad for him; he would ask them if they knew the foulest things, and they, like wild boars, came rushing on his blows, and fearlessly replied that they did. And should we be any the better if we went about having a knowledge of the places where most gold was hidden in the earth? If I was not in error, even you will not refute me, and all your wisdom will be non-plussed; but if I did fall into error, then again you are wrong in saying that there is no error,—and this remark was made by you not quite a year ago. Then, my dear Crito, there was universal applause of the speakers and their words, and what with laughing and clapping of hands and rejoicings the two men were quite overpowered; for hitherto their partisans only had cheered at each successive hit, but now the whole company shouted with delight until the columns of the Lyceum returned the sound, seeming to sympathize in their joy. And though I may appear ridiculous in venturing to advise you, I think that you may as well hear what was said to me by a man of very considerable pretensions—he was a professor of legal oratory— who came away from you while I was walking up and down. What, said Ctesippus; then all things are not silent? "Neglected for ages by Plato scholars, the Euthydemus has in recent years attracted renewed attention. said Dionysodorus; why, there never was such a thing. In Plato: Early dialogues The Euthydemus shows Socrates among the eristics (those who engage in showy logical disputation). Euthydemus answered: And that which is not is not? And philosophy is the acquisition of knowledge? I should have far more reason to beat yours, said Ctesippus; what could he have been thinking of when he begat such wise sons? Everybody's eyes were directed towards him, perceiving that something wonderful might shortly be expected. Then I would much rather that you should prove me to have such a knowledge; at my time of life that will be more agreeable than having to learn. Yes, Dionysodorus, I replied, I have seen many. And the business of the cook is to cut up and skin; you have admitted that? I then recalled to his mind the previous state of the question. But neither he nor you, Ctesippus, have any need of much good. They can see to any extent, said Ctesippus. Then he is a father, and he is yours; ergo, he is your father, and the puppies are your brothers. Now, given the crowd’s reaction and Dionysodorus’ warning, we can already tell what the two Sophists are mainly after, and it’s not wisdom or virtue. I wanted to see how they would approach the question, and where they would start in their exhortation to the young man that he should practise wisdom and virtue. The art of the general is surely an art of hunting mankind. Why, because I was stupid and made a mistake. Socrates: Perhaps I may have forgotten, and Ctesippus was the real answerer. The scholarly apparatus is immense and detailed. That name, I said, is not to be found among the Ionians, whether colonists or citizens of Athens; an ancestral Apollo there is, who is the father of Ion, and a family Zeus, and a Zeus guardian of the phratry, and an Athene guardian of the phratry. His name is Cleinias, and he is the son of Axiochus, and grandson of the old Alcibiades, cousin of the Alcibiades that now is. I saw that they were getting exasperated with one another, so I made a joke with him and said: O Ctesippus, I think that we must allow the strangers to use language in their own way, and not quarrel with them about words, but be thankful for what they give us. I suppose that is true, I said, if my qualification implied in the words 'that I know' is not allowed to stand; and so I do know all things. Would a man be better off, having and doing many things without wisdom, or a few things with wisdom? You remember, I said, our making the admission that we should be happy and fortunate if many good things were present with us? Yes, I have admitted that, but you must not be too hard upon me. In fact, Socrates says after this first line of questions, “The word was hardly out of his mouth when Dionysodorus took up the argument, like a ball which he caught, and had another throw at the youth,” and elsewhere comparing them to dancers. and Euthydemus shall tell how many teeth you have. And have you not admitted that those who do not know are of the number of those who have not? Then we must surely be speaking the same thing? That, I think, is the main point, but there are a few minor things I’d like to address. The online version preserves the marginal comments of the printed edition and has links to all the notes and comments provided by Jowett. Yes, he said, I certainly saw him and the mother of the puppies come together. The Euthyphro asks, “What is piety?” Euthyphro fails to maintain the successive positions that piety is “what the gods love,” “what the gods all love,” or some sort of service to the gods. Crito: The one whom I mean was seated second from you on the right-hand side. I suppose that I must obey, for you are master. And I think that I had better once more exhibit the form in which I pray to behold them; it might be a guide to them. Taking advantage of my consternation he added: You wish him no longer to be what he is, which can only mean that you wish him to perish. That is quite true, I said. Upon what principle? Neither and both, said Dionysodorus, quickly interposing; I am sure that you will be 'non-plussed' at that answer. Yes, Euthydemus, said Ctesippus; but he speaks of things in a certain way and manner, and not as they really are. Socrates: No more were we, Crito. Hide browse bar Your current position in the text is marked in blue. Site information : About the author. Yes, Euthydemus, said Ctesippus; but in saying this, he says what is not. Wolfgang Polleichtner. Crito: I see no objection, Socrates, if you like; but first I wish that you would give me a description of their wisdom, that I may know beforehand what we are going to learn. Tools : Index of persons and locations - Detailed and synoptic chronologies - Maps of Ancient Greek World. Plato’s Dialogues: Euthydemus. Shall we repeat that they will make others good, and that these others will make others again, without ever determining in what they are to be good; for we have put aside the results of politics, as they are called. Socrates: And what would you say that the kingly art does? What can make you tell such a lie about me and the others, which I hardly like to repeat, as that I wish Cleinias to perish? Here, anticipating the final move, like a person caught in a net, who gives a desperate twist that he may get away, I said: No, Dionysodorus, I have not. Interestingly, Socrates gives this exchange a positive spin, telling Cleinias that they’re simply giving him an initiation of sorts into the art of dialectic and are playing with him. And he who says that thing says that which is? And yet I did think that the art which we have so long been seeking might be discovered in that direction; for the composers of speeches, whenever I meet them, always appear to me to be very extraordinary men, Cleinias, and their art is lofty and divine, and no wonder. For, as I was saying at first, the improvement of this young man in virtue and wisdom is a matter which we have very much at heart. At least his modesty will not allow him to say that he is. Socrates: Yes, indeed; he proceeded in a lofty strain to the following effect: Would you rather, Socrates, said he, that I should show you this knowledge about which you have been doubting, or shall I prove that you already have it? Now, if philosophy and political action are both good, but tend to different ends, and they participate in both, and are in a mean between them, then they are talking nonsense, for they are worse than either; or, if the one be good and the other evil, they are better than the one and worse than the other; only on the supposition that they are both evil could there be any truth in what they say. The word was hardly out of his mouth when Dionysodorus took up the argument, like a ball which he caught, and had another throw at the youth. And seeing that in war to have arms is a good thing, he ought to have as many spears and shields as possible? O, indeed, I said, what a wonderful thing, and what a great blessing! I’ll go ahead and quote Euthydemus’ full line of questioning here, since it gives one an idea of how the whole dialogue proceeds: Now Euthydemus, if I remember rightly, began nearly as follows: O Cleinias, are those who learn the wise or the ignorant?[…]. The dictum is that there is no such thing as falsehood; a man must either say what is true or say nothing. He adds: The two foreign gentlemen, perceiving that you did not know, wanted to explain to you that the word ‘to learn’ has two meanings, and is used, first, in the sense of acquiring knowledge of some matter of which you previously have no knowledge, and also, when you have the knowledge, in the sense of reviewing this matter, whether something done or spoken by the light of this newly-acquired knowledge; the latter is generally called ‘knowing’ rather than ‘learning,’ but the word ‘learning’ is also used; and you did not see, as they explained to you, that the term is employed of two opposite sorts of men, of those who know, and of those who do not know. It may not be Plato’s most insightful dialogue, but I do think it’s his most entertaining. My God! Protagoras (/ p r oʊ ˈ t æ ɡ ə r ə s /; Greek: Πρωταγόρας) is a dialogue by Plato.The traditional subtitle (which may or may not be Plato's) is "or the Sophists". Socrates had, it seems, met with the Sophists Euthydemus and his older brother Dionysodorus. The first is when there is an equal linguistic propriety in several interpretations; the second when one is improper but customary; the third when the ambiguity arises in the combination of elements that are in themselves unambiguous, as in "knowing letters." Elenchi (Poste's translation):—, 'Of ambiguous propositions the following are instances:—. And if you do not know, you are not knowing. You may take our word, Socrates, for the fact. I said. Of all other men, he replied. The dialogue considers the source and nature of political obligation. The youth, overpowered by the question blushed, and in his perplexity looked at me for help; and I, knowing that he was disconcerted, said: Take courage, Cleinias, and answer like a man whichever you think; for my belief is that you will derive the greatest benefit from their questions. Then, Cleinias, he said, those who do not know learn, and not those who know. The dialogue considers the source and nature of political obligation. Od. Not by the same father, my good man, I said, for Chaeredemus was his father, and mine was Sophroniscus. Then, after a pause, in which he seemed to be lost in the contemplation of something great, he said: Tell me, Socrates, have you an ancestral Zeus? For a dispute might possibly arise about this. Still you are not knowing, and you said just now that you were knowing; and therefore you are and are not at the same time, and in reference to the same things. Always, I replied, when I know, I know with this. And can he vault among swords, and turn upon a wheel, at his age? Now censure of the pursuit, Socrates, whether coming from him or from others, appears to me to be undeserved; but as to the impropriety of holding a public discussion with such men, there, I confess that, in my opinion, he was in the right. They may well have some basis in conversations Plato either took part in or overheard, but that is all. EUTHYDEMUS by Plato 380 BC translated by Benjamin Jowett New York, C. Scribner's Sons, [1871] PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: SOCRATES, who is the narrator; CRITO; CLEINIAS; EUTHYDEMUS; DIONYSODORUS; CTESIPPUS. And therefore, upon your own showing, no one says what is false; but if Dionysodorus says anything, he says what is true and what is. Do you suppose the same person to be a father and not a father? And an indolent man less than an active man? Poseidon, said Ctesippus, what awful distinctions. I see the reason, I said, why you are in such reputation among your disciples. And when you were learners you did not as yet know the things which you were learning? But I think, Socrates, that wisdom can be taught, he said. Rouse, revised].In classical times this dialog was also titled The Eristic and was classified as a "refutative" dialog (Diog. I suppose that I had best answer you, Dionysodorus, I said, for you will insist on asking—that I pretty well know—out of envy, in order to prevent me from learning the wisdom of Euthydemus. And I remembered that Connus was always angry with me when I opposed him, and then he neglected me, because he thought that I was stupid; and as I was intending to go to Euthydemus as a pupil, I reflected that I had better let him have his way, as he might think me a blockhead, and refuse to take me. This is the old, old song over again; and we are just as far as ever, if not farther, from the knowledge of the art or science of happiness. At these words the followers of Euthydemus, of whom I spoke, like a chorus at the bidding of their director, laughed and cheered. In classical times this dialog was also titled The Eristic and was classified as a "refutative" dialog (Diog. I cannot say that I like the connection; but is he only my father, Euthydemus, or is he the father of all other men? But at any rate you know that if this is the art which we were seeking, it ought to be useful. Are you saying this as a paradox, Dionysodorus; or do you seriously maintain no man to be ignorant? Includes notes and an introductory essay. Euthydemus was proceeding to give the youth a third fall; but I knew that he was in deep water, and therefore, as I wanted to give him a respite lest he should be disheartened, I said to him consolingly: You must not be surprised, Cleinias, at the singularity of their mode of speech: this I say because you may not understand what the two strangers are doing with you; they are only initiating you after the manner of the Corybantes in the mysteries; and this answers to the enthronement, which, if you have ever been initiated, is, as you will know, accompanied by dancing and sport; and now they are just prancing and dancing about you, and will next proceed to initiate you; imagine then that you have gone through the first part of the sophistical ritual, which, as Prodicus says, begins with initiation into the correct use of terms. and was not that our conclusion? An original audiobook of the Socratic dialogue, Euthydemus, by the legendary Greek Philosopher Plato. And tell me, I said, O tell me, what do possessions profit a man, if he have neither good sense nor wisdom? Up next is another relatively short one, Menexenus. 'Surely,' I said, 'philosophy is a charming thing.' You prate, he said, instead of answering. he said:—'theirs was the sort of discourse which anybody might hear from men who were playing the fool, and making much ado about nothing.' Socrates: He whom you mean, Crito, is Euthydemus; and on my left hand there was his brother Dionysodorus, who also took part in the conversation. But I can promise you, I said, that every unvirtuous person will want to learn. And here I offer my old person to Dionysodorus; he may put me into the pot, like Medea the Colchian, kill me, boil me, if he will only make me good. Socrates: What, all men, and in every respect? Now Ctesippus was sitting at some distance from Cleinias; and when Euthydemus leaned forward in talking with me, he was prevented from seeing Cleinias, who was between us; and so, partly because he wanted to look at his love, and also because he was interested, he jumped up and stood opposite to us: and all the other admirers of Cleinias, as well as the disciples of Euthydemus and Dionysodorus, followed his example. EUTHYDEMUS PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, who is the narrator of the Dialogue. Let us consider a further point, I said: Seeing that all men desire happiness, and happiness, as has been shown, is gained by a use, and a right use, of the things of life, and the right use of them, and good- fortune in the use of them, is given by knowledge,—the inference is that everybody ought by all means to try and make himself as wise as he can? Then tell me, he said, do you know anything? Here Ctesippus was silent; and I in my astonishment said: What do you mean, Dionysodorus? When you were children, and at your birth? And do they speak great things of the great, rejoined Euthydemus, and warm things of the warm? Which Translation of The Analects Should I Read? And now I will answer simply that I always know what I know with something. There is certainly something specious in that notion of theirs. 'No, indeed,' I said to him; 'I could not get within hearing of them—there was such a crowd.' And clearly we do not want the art of the flute-maker; this is only another of the same sort? Ninth Friend: Edmund Spenser, "Amoretti LXXV: One Day I Wrote her Name". Is not that your position? But how can I refute you, if, as you say, to tell a falsehood is impossible? Crito: Yes, indeed, Socrates, by some one a good deal superior, as I should be disposed to think. And is that something, he rejoined, always the same, or sometimes one thing, and sometimes another thing? Always; since I am required to withdraw the words 'when I know.'. Or would an artisan, who had all the implements necessary for his work, and did not use them, be any the better for the possession of them? But now if you really have the other knowledge, O forgive me: I address you as I would superior beings, and ask you to pardon the impiety of my former expressions. Pretty lovers and friends they must be who want their favourite not to be, or to perish! To such a pitch was I affected myself, that I made a speech, in which I acknowledged that I had never seen the like of their wisdom; I was their devoted servant, and fell to praising and admiring of them. Certainly, he replied; they cannot know some things, and not know others, and be at the same time knowing and not knowing. For then neither of us says a word about the thing at all? And are not these gods animals? Plato was born c. 427 B.C. Providentially I was sitting alone in the dressing-room of the Lyceum where you saw me, and was about to depart; when I was getting up I recognized the familiar divine sign: so I sat down again, and in a little while the two brothers Euthydemus and Dionysodorus came in, and several others with them, whom I believe to be their disciples, and they walked about in the covered court; they had not taken more than two or three turns when Cleinias entered, who, as you truly say, is very much improved: he was followed by a host of lovers, one of whom was Ctesippus the Paeanian, a well-bred youth, but also having the wildness of youth. There’s also an interesting point where Crito interjects after relating some of Cleinias’ answers: CRITO: And do you mean, Socrates, that the youngster said all this? The mirth is broader, the irony more sustained, the contrast between Socrates and the two Sophists, although veiled, penetrates deeper than in any other of his writings. Socrates: And what does the kingly art do when invested with supreme power? Then the unlearned learn, and not the wise, Cleinias, as you imagine. When Ctesippus heard this he got very angry (as a lover well might) and said: Stranger of Thurii—if politeness would allow me I should say, A plague upon you! Crito answers that he was a speechwriter, which Socrates then calls an “amphibious” class, “one of those whom Prodicus describes as on the border-ground between philosophers and statesmen.” They think highly of themselves because they are knowledgeable of both fields, but Socrates argues that they are worse than either philosophers or statesmen: [I]f philosophy and political action are both good, but tend to different ends, and they participate in both, and are in a mean between them, then they are talking nonsense, for they are worse than either; or, if the one be good and the other evil, they are better than the one and worse than the other; only on the supposition that they are both evil could there be any truth in what they say. Volume 1 (with 9 dialogues) of a 5 volume edition of Plato by the great English Victorian Greek scholar, Benjamin Jowett. For example, if we had a great deal of food and did not eat, or a great deal of drink and did not drink, should we be profited? much good has this father of you and your brethren the puppies got out of this wisdom of yours. That’s no way to treat a friend, though, so I’ve made some time to catch up with him and Plato, this time with the dialogue Euthydemus. He is quite accustomed to do so, I replied; for his friends often come and ask him questions and argue with him; and therefore he is quite at home in answering. 'What you are in such reputation among your pupils no man to be sure they do, Ctesippus! All that has hitherto passed between you and them as they are a new of. Position: Trialogical Duals in Plato 's characteristic greatness company shall we,... There be any doubt that good birth, and Chaeredemus also me the! The Eristic and was all attention to what art shall we find a place for wisdom—among the goods or?. 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